Making it holds + saves would dilute the value of bullpen guys by spreading it out amongst more guys.  Right now saves can only be gotten by roughly 30 guys in the league with some regularity.  With save + holds, you more or less double the amount of folks that can score points for that category.  

Stepping Razor wrote:

Yahoo confirmed my theory, the bullpen (high leverage & closers) doesn't need anymore love 

https://sports.yahoo.com/the-spin-move-over-starters--why-relievers-are-becoming-the-fantasy-baseball-pitchers-to-prioritize-181522920.html

The article more or less puts it all on closers, like Clint and I have been saying.  If you add an additional category to saves, it dilutes it and spreads it out across more than just closers.  Right now, one category can only be acquired by roughly 30 guys, its given closers ridiculous value in the league.  

Yeah, CJ, I tend to agree with your thinking in most places, but I think you're way off on this one in my opinion.  Yes, I get your point, adding holds does make more relievers valuable.  But that's the entire point.  A closer doesn't get very many holds, and a setup guy doesn't get very many saves.

So your close who currently gets 30 saves, maybe now gets 30 saves and 10 holds. So yes, he's more valuable.  But now, your setup man that gets 35 holds and 1 save has almost the same value, where as our current roles, he has no value.  So instead of trying to squeeze 40 guys worth getting saves into 12 teams, you now have 60-70 guys able to provide the same value.

Just look at current MLB leaders.  There's 12 guys with 5 saves or more.  There are 18 guys with 5 holds or more.  By including holds, you've went from 12 guys providing very good save value, to 30 that would have the same value if it was saves + holds.  We are now fighting over 30 players, instead of 12. 

Ryan Helsley is someone you'd have to give up a ton to trade for right now, and he has nearly exact same numbers as JoJo Romero if we included holds, and JoJo Romero is a free agent.  In fact, Romero's numbers are better.  If holds were included, nobody would even ask about trading for Helsley right now because they could literally go pick up Romero for free and have better current value.

Helsley - 2.25 ERA, 7 saves, 0.92 WHIP, 13 K's in 12 innings.
Romero - 1.59 ERA, 7 holds, 0.62 WHIP, 13 K's in 11.1 innings.

I'll be honest, this is kind of the equivalent of you saying you're taking your ball and going home lol.  Come on now CJ, be better.  You of all people should at least be open to discussing rule options.

Nobody is saying we make any changes, they are just suggesting ideas.  You've suggested more rule changes than anyone the last 5 years and we've always discussed them and have implemented quite a few of them.  You're even the one that brought up the issue that closers are overvalued and SP's are undervalued, but when others offer potential solutions you don't even want to hear them.

JTL is great because it's a consistent group of guys, who are always thinking ahead and trying to find the next trick to win in this league.  That also should apply for rules, making sure we are continuing to at least look at rules and format to make sure the league stays relevant with today's brand of baseball.  We at least owe it to ourselves to discuss things.  Just saying no changes ever is how the top leagues become the worst leagues, because they refuse to adapt and the game passes them by.

Ok I’ve been mostly an observer in this discussion but figured I should weigh in some.

Looking at the thread, a few things have stood out as the main issues:

1) Are SP undervalued?
2) Are CL overvalued?

The problem with the responses is that they are trying to combine that into one issue. Making the current Saves category a combined Saves + Holds category can help bring down the value of CLs. But it doesn’t change the value of SP (may even hurt that more as CJ said we’d all board the SP/RP guys who get holds).  Adding SP spots helps the value of SP, but doesn’t change the value of CL.

My problem with SV+HLD on that topic alone is that it’s almost like saying we’ll combine Singles with HR because a singles hitter isn’t valued enough. I know it’s not the same due to the sheer number of hitters but hopefully you get the point. Guys have figured out that to really compete you need multiple CL. I was told that my first year on the league, which led to me trading my only one to help my rebuild. This is a tough league and part of that is that in this format CLs are super valuable. Get one you can hold a long time and you have struck gold. Changing stat meanings feel like we are just saying “let’s make it easier on guys to compete” and changing midstream is a hard pill to swallow for the guys that worked hard to get multiple CL. Feels like moving the goal line after we started.

Do we add IP minimums?  Would that ensure that SP get more value?  Raise the maximum and install a minimum?  Adding more designated SP would help but I think the IP limits would help as well.

Hopefully this all made sense as I’m doing this while I should be working 😂